"Muna" and "mura" please help!

I've often heard Irish speakers using "muna" in modh coinníollach.(conditional mood)

Is this the same as mura ?.

for instance ;

mura bhfaighinn an t-airgead ni dhéanfainn an obair.

if I hadn't got the money I shouldn't do the work.

or

mura mbíonn sé go breá amárach,ní thiocfaidh mé.

if it isn't fine tomorrow,I will not come.

I hope someone can help me out on this one.

Tristan.

Thanks for clearing that up Seano.I can't find muna in any foclóir ,only mura, this is where the confusion was.

I often hear older Irish speakers using muna  instead of mura .

I'll try and find out more about these two words,but I'm satisfied now that I have finally put paid to this nagging question,

Go raibh maith agat.

Tristan.

Tristan,

I have a couple of older Irish - English dictionaries these were obtained under the creative commons license, one is  by J. O'Brien dated 1832 and the other is compiled and edited by Rev. Patrick S. Dinneen, M.A. dated 1904 I have them in pdf format both have muna and mura listed in them let me know if your interested and I can post them on my site and send you a link for them.

BTW they are searchable.

Dia Dhuit a Dhómhnall.

Thanks for your assistance.Yes I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of the old J Ó Brien dictionary of 1832.I'm sure that will have alot of interesting words in it.

Methinks that muna it a much used word of years gone by and with the continuous "standardisation"of Irish since the 1948,I think the

mura   word is now used in schools and the older muna word is now to be heard by the older generation only,This is what I seem to be experiencing.

Go raibh míle maith agat!.

The 1832 dictionary

The 1904 dictionary

Both are pdf format.

I'd suggest trying both of them.

These are excellent resources! Thank you for posting them online.

Eamonn66

Tá fáilte romhat

matthew 9:21

...Mura ndéanaim ach mo lámh a chur lena bhrat, beidh mé slán  - my stab at this is ...

"Unless I do but put my hand after his (departing) cloak, I will be healed"

or "If I don't but put..."

rud a chur le duine = to put a thing on a departing person

so far so good?   BUT : the sense of the last bit is wrong ??? Shouldn't it be ...

...Mura ndéanaim ach mo lámh a chur lena bhrat, ní bheidh mé slán

"Unless I do but put my hand after his cloak, I will NOT be healed"

I am confident that the scripture is grammatically correct and , as usual, it is my understanding that is wrong

I just need a kind person to point out my mistake

go raibh maith agaibh

matthew 9:21

...Mura ndéanaim ach mo lámh a chur lena bhrat, beidh mé slán  - ok, i have discovered mura = if only ...

If only i do but put my hand after his cloak, I will be healed

anybody spot any more of my errors ?

Hi tc008,

The context here is that the lame person is thinking that she only needs to touch Jesus's cloak with her HAND as opposed to embracing or pleading with Jesus etc to get cured,emphasising that she only needs to touch Jesus's cloak with her hand to get healed.such is the power of Jesus in the mind of the lame person.

Thus in Irish she emphasises this fact by saying;

...Mura ndéanaim ach mo lámh a chur lena bhrat;

"If  I do not but to put my hand to his cloak"

"mura ndeanaim" is negative conditional = If I do not

I.e If I do not (embrace,grab his leg,beg,plead,cry out,scream or whatever etc) BUT put my hand on his cloak.I will be well "

"If I only  put my hand on His cloak" or " I need only touch His cloak with my hand" would be the best English equivilent,It is very mportant to notice the "ach"= BUT as this single word changes the meaning to the correct context.

and thus she is then able to confirm ;

 beidh mé slán 

"I will be healthy"or "I will be well".

Hope this clarifies things for you.

Slán is beannacht.Tristan.

Incidently personally,this is my most favourite story in the Bible about Jesus for many reasons,There is a beautiful and inspiring story that surrounds  this piece of text.

Mura appears to be the standard conditional negative  used in schools today.

Oh another point.;

"mo lamh a chur lena bhrat" means to put my hand to his cloak i.e. "touch"!.

similar to the archaic English "to put pen to paper" i.e. "write"!

Hi lanstad

thanks for your most helpful explanation. Here is the rest of the passage ....

matthew 9:20-21

Agus bean a raibh rith fola uirthi ar feadh dhá bhliain déag, tháinig sí taobh thiar de agus chuir sí a lámh le scothóg a bhrait, mar dúirt sí léi féin: “ Mura ndéanaim ach mo
lámh a chur lena bhrat, beidh mé slán .”

And a woman on whom was a flow of blood for 12 years, she came (to the) back of him and she put her hand to the fringe of his cloak, as she said to herself: "If  I do not but to put my hand to his cloak, I will be healthy"

    Ó Dónaill's dictionary lists :-

beannacht a chur le duine = to invoke a blessing on a (presumed departing) person

 so this is where I got the idea of chur lena bhrat implying that Jesus was passing on and the woman attempting to catch him

what do you think?

You are spot on in calling this story inspiring Total trust that Jesus could solve her problems together with the humility of not wanting to trouble him.

Hi tc0081,I think you may be reading too much into the "beannacht a chur le duine" in Ó Dónaill's dictionary.This simply means to bless a person and would most probably be to someone departing but not necessarily so.Irish uses alot of blessings to each other in social greetings and good-byes.

I mean even the English "Good- Bye" comes from "God be with ye".

The story goes that the unwell woman was at the back of Jesus and out of his sight and surrounded by a large tight crowd but when the woman touched just the hem of his cloak he knew !

He even asked his disiples who it was who touched him, who were of course perplexed by the absurd question considering that he was tightly surrounded by a very large crowd.!

Yet by her faith alone,Jesus felt her presence.