Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

Latest post Tue, Sep 5 2017 14:34 by tonyd. 8 replies.
  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 8:46

    • tonyd
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    Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    Currently looking at a motif in Irish fairy tales/mythology of the City of the Red Stream or the Hag of the Red Stream etc. In Irish it appears in Douglas Hyde's translation of Eaċtra cloinne riġ na n-Ioruaiḋe and in Scottish in tales of the Cailleach na tsrutha ruaidh. It is not a common motif and I was wondering if, off the top of their head, anyone has come across other references to it.

    I bhfad iallach orthu ar aon chúnamh,

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  • Wed, Aug 16 2017 18:50 In reply to

    • Dale D
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    To answer your question directly, no.

    And to comment on this post:  this question is really outside the scope of this forum and site.  We are here as people trying to learn Irish (Gaeilge), so very few of us would have much exposure to the material you reference.  If someone does, they are, of course, welcome to reply to you.

    I would recommend that you might try the Irish Language Forum, as there are many fluent (and possibly native) speakers there who may have the background to answer your question with a bit more insight and experience with the language and culture.

    Good luck!

    Dale D

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  • Thu, Aug 17 2017 8:02 In reply to

    • tonyd
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    Hi Dale,

    I take your point. On the other hand an earlier post I put up was about 'whistling eels'. When I visited the University College Dublin archive of folklore to find out about them, I was told they'd never heard of such a thing. After posting on this forum, a user gave me a dozen links to texts.

    I listen to a bit of Irish, particularly documentaries on TG4 but am unlikely to be ever any good at speaking. However, I can see that Irish (and Scots Gaelic) is a repository of cultural ideas that have vanished or are unrecognisable in other languages. I post with the hope that someone might give me a line to follow but also to suggest to people that Irish (and there are many untranslated texts and audio recordings) is a gateway to a glitterig world of cultural ideas that would make Tutankhamun's tomb pale by comparison.

    Did not know about the Irish language forum and will give it a try.

    Go raibh céad míle maith agat!

    Tony

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  • Thu, Aug 17 2017 15:26 In reply to

    • Dale D
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    Fáilte romhat!  Certainly you may continue to post such items here if you will; they are not completely unrelated or off-topic, but they do seem to be oriented more toward the academic than the learner.  There are a few people on here who may benefit from, or be able to contribute to, the topics you post, so don't be discouraged from the narrow nature of the audience here....

    Good luck!

    Dale D

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  • Mon, Sep 4 2017 11:22 In reply to

    • otuathail
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    Hi Tony,

    Can't be of any help this time afraid. I've never come across any references to red streams or associated hags. But if I do come across anything, I'll get back in touch.

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  • Mon, Sep 4 2017 11:51 In reply to

    • tonyd
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    Thanks Otuathail, good to hear from you and hope you're keeping well.  I suspect the motif did exist but the Red Stream element has disappeared over time. The equivalent encounter and conflict in Irish mythology appears to be encapsulated in the myth: The Enchanted Cave of Keshcorran, in which the Fianna are bound and Goll mac Morna must rescue them. That said the motif may still exist in texts that have yet to be translated from the Gaelic. For the moment though not a showstopper!

    Go raibh maith agat!

    Tony

     

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  • Tue, Sep 5 2017 10:23 In reply to

    • tonyd
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    Hi Otuathail,

    In a Scottish variant of the tale I'm examining the protagonist is called:  Gille nan Cochall Chraicinn which to me looks like Gilly of the Skin Cowl. Would that be correct or am I taking it too literally?

    Tony

     

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  • Tue, Sep 5 2017 11:12 In reply to

    • otuathail
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

    Hi Tony,

    I'm not sure about Scottish Gaelic, but in Irish a literal translation of cochall craicinn would be a hood of skin. This likely means a leather hood or cowl. Gille/Gilly is probably related to giolla, which means boy, or servant, or an attendant or working man of some desription. Giolla can be used in a similar way to Jack in English (Jack of all trades, etc.), a sort of generic stand in name for a common working man. Not sure if same holds true in Scotland.  I'm not sure what nan is but I'm guessing it's similar to an in Irish. So yeah, you could translate Gille nan Cochall Chraicinn literally as Gilly of the Skin Cowl or perhaps Jack of the Leather Hood.

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  • Tue, Sep 5 2017 14:34 In reply to

    • tonyd
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    Re: Motif of the Red Stream in mythology/ fairy tale - tsrota dearg (Irish) or tsrutha ruaidh (Scottish)

     'Leather hood' makes much more sense than 'skin cowl'. And yes, from other Scottish tales my impression is giolla and gilly would be much the same. 

     Breá léirsteanach i gcónaí, go raibh céad míle maith agat!

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